2014 Browns draft wish list.

Evans, Fuller, and Bucannon at #4, #26, and #35.

Evans, Fuller, and Bucannon at #4, #26, and #35.

It’s crunch time and I’m ready to get the wish list published for our friends in Berea and with plenty of time for them to adjust their boards as needed.

I’ve settled in on my picks.

The problem is that they are subject to change pending the release of the remaining McGinn Draft Reports.  If you’re not familiar, Bob McGinn (Milwaukee Journal Sentinel) has terrific access to NFL scouts and his draft analysis is based on information provided to him, in confidence, by those NFL scouts.  It is priceless and it tends to change my view on prospects.  I’m excerpting them for reference and you can find them in the menu bar under 2014 NFL Draft.1

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If you’ve ever wondered what other NFL beat reporters timelines look like.

His series is the single most useful draft review you will find.  Here’s just a few quotes.

On Derek Carr:

“OK in the interview but not the type of guy you’d have a beer with.  Good kid but little bit of a forced leader.  Can he fit in?”2 

Mettenberger:

“Just an arm,” said one scout. “He has no other quarterback qualities.”

Wenning:

“He’s more ready to be a pro quarterback than Jimmy Garoppolo,” one scout said. “He can see the whole field. He’s actually reacting on what defenders are doing. Good athlete, good arm.”

Beckham:

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While Packers fans are reviewing the most comprehensive draft review in the country by their beat writers, Browns fans get profile touting another overrated redundant pass-rusher at #4 and the umpteenth Watkins Bridgewater mention.

“He has the athletic ability, ability to bend and get in and out of breaks, the catch radius, unbelievable hands, return value. He’s a very, very talented player.”

Adams:

“All his big games were against (expletive) competition like Hawaii,” another scout said. “He came on a little at the end but I don’t see him as a top-three round guy. Fourth round.”

Paul Richardson:

Described by two scouts as “pure speed.”  “He’s a lightweight guy so he can really get in and out of his (breaks),” said one scout. “He’s not going to play the power game. He’s not going to pull through tackles. If a (cornerback) gets his hands on him they’re going to reroute him pretty easy. But if you want a guy who can separate on the outside from man cover that’s what he can do. He can threaten deep. Great feet. Very quick.”

Jake Matthews:

“He’s got short arms (33-3/8). I don’t think he’ll be a left tackle. People fall in love with the last name. If his last name was something else, I don’t think he’d be picked as high, honestly. Jake Matthews is a very good player, but I don’t see much difference between him and Zack Martin.”

Lewan:

“He’s also bigger, more athletic and has longer arms than Matthews. He’s the fastest O-lineman in the draft. I know he can pass protect from left tackle. He is the guy that is not getting his real due, OK?”

You get the idea.  It’s what sports journalism should be.  Meanwhile in Cleveland our Browns beat writer is giving us these pearls:

I agree it’s time to gamble on a quarterback at No. 4 even if there’s no Andrew Luck in the bunch. Those guys only come around so often, but this class is deep enough that the Browns should be able to find one they like at No. 4. Question is, which one? Do they really love Johnny Manziel? I’ve heard that they do, and I’ve heard that they don’t! I’ve heard they really like Derek Carr, but maybe not at No. 4. 

do-not-want-bear

DeAnthony Thomas, take notice.

Cripes.


Anyway.  I’m ready to take what was contributed in the KRM and from the combine data and from McGinn’s scouts and from actually watching a lot of college football and distill a wish list.  And, unlike last year, I’ll define and use a methodology to arrive at the list.

  1. Go position by position identifying ‘do wants’ and ‘do not wants’ at each position.
  2. Gut feel on which guys I want more.
  3. Try to be sensible in projecting what players will be available at what pick.3
  4. Avoid gross redundancies (both inside the draft and with the current roster).

This will give us a list approximating what an “A” draft looks like to me.

“Do want”/”Do not want” by position.

Here’s my preferences by position.  For reference on the prospects, I’m linking to the ranking page DraftBrowns.com produced for each position.4 “Do want” is a slight misnomer because, for example, I do want Aaron Donald… but I won’t draft him in the top ten with our front seven.  “Do like” might be better.  Whatevs.  Let’s go.

7795000

It’s not fair and that’s Demarcus Lawrence, but this pic is why Bitonio is not on my good list.

WR/TE:  Evans-TAMU, Beckham-LSU, Robinson-PSU, Matthews-Vandy, Bryant-Clemson, Richardson-CU, Campanero-Wake.  Do not want:  Cooks, Adams, Ellington, Herron, Grimble. … The McGinn write-ups on Bryant and Richardson got my attention.  Was never a huge Davante Adams fan and the feeling was confirmed.

RB:  Mason-AU, Johnson-UCF, Seastrunk (bargain)-BU, McKinnon-GaSo. DNW:  Williams, Carey, Sims, Thomas, Andrews. … Tre Mason isn’t just a hole hitter, he is a hole attacker.  Everything we didn’t like about Trent Richardson is what Mason doesn’t do.  Lache Seastrunk’s fall seems out of proportion.  If you find him in the fifth don’t you take him?  Just because some idiot agent set an expectation of a sub-4.4 combine 40 doesn’t mean he’s not still big and fast.

QB:  Bortles-UCF, Garoppolo-EIU, Murray-UGA, Wenning-Ball, Matthews-Cornell, Guiton-OSU.  DNW:  Bridgewater, McCarron, Thomas, Fales, Morris, Lynch. … The past three months have been an elaborate hoax to lower expectations on Blake Bortles.  Not fooled.  He’s going to be a good QB.  I’m moving Carr from the ‘do want’ into ‘no comment.’  The scout’s quote bugs me and he has the same size hands a Bridgewater.  As with Bridgewater, hands are not a primary indicator of future failure, but it is a metric to use in the eval.

OT:  Robinson-AU, Matthews-TAMU, Lewan-UM, James-Tenn, Mewhort-OSU, Schofield (bargain)-UM, Turner-NDST; DNW:  Kouandijo, Henderson, Moses. … As good as that scout’s quote on Lewan (above) was, there’s a similar one about Schofield.  Something along the lines that Schofield would be rated a lot higher if not in Lewan’s shadow.

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Grossi must have been crying this to himself because I can’t recall his ever writing anything on the subject.

OG/C:  Martin-ND, Jackson-MissySt, Richardson (bargain)-BU, Thomas (knee)-Clemson, Richburg-CSU, Bodine-UNC.5; DNW:  Yankey. … I’ve got Zack Martin at guard because that’s how McGinn did it.  Didn’t like Yankey at the combine, scout’s comment validates.  Also, and this may be unfair but such is life, he has the whiff of Jonathan Martin about him.  If Barrett Jones lasted to the fourth round last year with a lisfranc, is Brandon Thomas sixth round material with his knee?

CB:  Fuller-VaTech, Desir-Lindenwood, Jean-Baptiste-Nebraska, Gaines-Rice, Davis-AU; DNW:  Roby, Roberson, Joyner, Allen, Purifoy. … I’m going to get into Fuller below.  Not mentioned is Keith McGill from Utah.  He was a combine stud with great size.  But I keep reading things like ‘doesn’t like contact’ about him.  So I’m just no commenting on him.  Roby is on the DNW list because there’s too many good first round CBs who don’t need to be coached-up on their coverage technique or ball-skills.

SS/FS:  Bucannon-Wazzu, Bryant-OSU (bargain), Dowling-WKU; DNW:  Ward-NIU, Pryor-Lville. … I have nothing particularly against Jimmie Ward but I don’t remember him at NIU and dang that was a soft defense.  And he’s short.  Ditto Pryor.  Might be good, who knows?  I just don’t take short d-backs in the first round.  Kind of a rule.  (I do, though, think the 5-9 Christian Bryant is being overlooked.)

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What the hell man? You’re 5-11.

OLB/ILB:  Hubbard-Bama, Zumwalt-UCLA, Jones-Shepherd, Pierre-Louis-BC; Mosley-Bama, Skov-Stanford (bargain); DNW:  Mack (not at #4), Attaochu; Borland, Jackson. … If we’re in the market for linebackers, no one is jumping out at me.  I like Mosley but he’ll have to be there at #35.  I frankly forget why I don’t like Attaochu but I think it has something to with his playing soft for the world’s softest defense.6 The Mack-at-four talk is pure nonsense.  “Oh we’ll just take him at four and have him play a position he doesn’t know.”  DION JORDAN ANYONE?  Lunacy.  It’s fine if you want to take a flyer like that in the third round or later.  Dicey in the second.  Dumb in the first.  Simply insane to do it in the top five twelve months after seeing another team try and fail with the same gambit.  It’s not like there aren’t lots of players to choose from at four.  So.  No.  No thanks on Khalil Mack to the Browns, ok Tony Grossi?

DE/DT:  Clowney-SCAR, Lawrence-Boise, Jeffcoat-UT; Donald-Pitt, Hageman-Minny; DNW:  Ford, Sam. … I think I gotta take Clowney if he’s there at four.  Not trade-back.  Take him.  I know I know… needs-based roster.  Takes plays off.  Sorry, the ceiling is too crazy.  Love Aaron Donald.

So those are the guys I like.  Let’s see how many we might be able to come away with.


Wish list by pick.

[I’ll update these with the McGinn excerpts as they come in.]

#4 Mike Evans, WR, TAMU.
I will say that I’d take Clowney if he’s here but I don’t think he will be.  I would be tempted by Bortles.  Personally Robinson/Lewan/Matthews sound good to me, but I’m taking to heart Pettine’s quote about the shape of the o-line.  I’ve always liked Pinkston, Chris Faulk might live up to his rep and, hell, I liked Gilkey.  He might be blowing smoke but sure makes it sound like the three tackles are not in play here.

Back to Evans, here’s a money quote from a scout:

“I wonder if he had a big bump-run corner on him could he separate?” a third scout said. “That was my only hesitation. But now with the rules the way they are he’ll get every call imaginable.”

The separation at the line business might be a little overdone at least based on this film.  He seems to get off the line fine.  Here’s the full McGinn excerpt:

MIKE EVANS, Texas A&M (6-4½, 231, 4.52, 1) — Third-year sophomore. “Some of the best ball skills I’ve ever seen,” one scout said. “Tremendous hand-eye coordination, body control, balance. He runs fast. Not a great route-runner. He’s a little stiff in and out of his breaks. But he’s a guy you throw the ball up to and he’s going to catch his share like an Alshon Jeffery type of guy. Wish he was faster. Highly competitive.” Outstanding prep basketball player in Galveston, Texas. Signed with Texas A&M coach Mike Sherman. “He doesn’t really separate,” another scout said. “He just goes up and climbs. He is exceptional because he’s fast.” Finished with 151 catches for 2,499 yards (16.6) and 17 TDs. Scored 25 on the 50-question Wonderlic intelligence test. “I wonder if he had a big bump-run corner on him could he separate?” a third scout said. “That was my only hesitation. But now with the rules the way they are he’ll get every call imaginable.” Some scouts argue Evans made Johnny Manziel, while others argue just the opposite.

Additional thought on ‘why Mike Evans’ — the Bengals were #2 in red zone offense last year.  I think it a lot to do with targets like Green, Jones, Eifert, Gresham, Sanu than it did with the QB.  Gordon-Cameron-Evans in the red zone sounds fun, doesn’t it?

Would be happy with:  Clowney, Bortles, Robinson-Matthews-Lewan.
Do not want:  Mack, Manziel.

***

#26 Kyle Fuller, CB, VaTech.
This is not about Fuller’s size and combine measurables although they’re good.  See this highlight reel.

We take highlight reels with grains of salt, but this is the best highlight film I’ve seen, ever.  I don’t think he’ll be here at #26.

UPDATE 5/7.  McGinn kept us waiting til today for the D-Back report but both Fuller and Bucannon were validated.

KYLE FULLER, Virginia Tech (5-11½, 192, 4.43, 1) – First thing out of the mouths of many scouts are positives for the type of person that he is. “Great kid,” one scout said. “He can cover. Nothing wrong with him. I think he is the most solid (cornerback).” Three-year starter with six picks and 26 passes defensed. “Needs to put on a little bit of mass but a really good athlete,” another scout said. “He’s fast. He’s got cover skills…ball skills. He’s not afraid to play the run. He comes from an awesome pedigree. If he somehow got into the second round I would be offering everything I own to trade up to get him. There’s not a whole lot negative.” Brother Vince was a nickel back for three teams from 2005-’11. Brother Corey is a second-year WR for Detroit. Wonderlic of 11. “Just had an outstanding game against Alabama (Aug. 31),” a third scout said. “Had a pick, several breakups, was involved in run support. He went from probably the third-round area to maybe the first. He runs well enough, he’s got instincts and he’s tough.” Long injury history is a concern. From Baltimore.

Would be happy with:  Mosley, Carr, Clinton-Dix.
Do not want:  Any RB, Bridgewater, Verrette Manziel, Cooks.

***

#35 Deone Bucannon, S, Wazzu
This was a really toss-up between Stanley Jean-Baptiste and Bucannon.  I could definitely see taking two CBs this high in the draft especially if one has SJB’s size.  And I know Bucannon really plays Whitner’s position.  But Bucannon is stronger, faster.  Both can bang and either will fit in with the tone that I think Whitner is going to set for the d-backs.  I basically think Bucannon will have a better chance to see the field going against Gipson in training camp.

DEONE BUCANNON, Washington State (6-0, 211, 4.51, 1-2) – Started 43 of 48 games. “I think he’s a top-10 pick,” one scout said. “Height-weight-speed. Tackling skills are equivalent to Clinton-Dix and Pryor, but when he hits you he knocks ‘em out. He’s a bigger version of Ronnie Lott. He’s such a good player, you could take him out of the middle of the field and have him go one-on-one with one of those big wide receivers. He’s that athletic. I’ve seen him cover people in space. Did you know this guy played four years of golf in high school? Golf is the thinking-man’s game. Don’t tell me he can’t think his way through.” Figures to be the Cougars’ highest drafted player since 2007. “Best hitter at safety,” said another scout. “Over Calvin Pryor. Put on the Auburn game (Aug. 31) and watch the hit Bucannon puts on Tre Mason. Ouch. Somebody is going to get a good player there.” Finished with 384 tackles (13½ for loss), 15 picks and 14 passes defensed. “Box safety,” said a third scout. “He’s stiff as (expletive). Can’t cover. He misses more tackles. I’ll tell you what. If we play him we’re going to match (his team’s TE) up with him.” Added almost 20 pounds in last year. Wonderlic of 15. “He will hit you but he can’t learn,” a fourth scout said. “There’s a real mental concern with Bucannon. He runs and he hits. The coverage and the learning is an issue with him.” From Fairfield, Calif.

Would be happy with:  Robinson-PSU, Matthews-Vandy, Jean-Baptiste-Neb, James-Tenn.
Do not want:  Ford, Moses.

***

#71 (first third rounder) Gabe Jackson, OG, MissySt.
I’m hearing about not a fit in zone block scheme and ok, well maybe you’re right.  But ballers ball.  Jackson is a baller.  I think he’d be a terrific value in the third round, but hey, I wouldn’t be upset if we took him in the second.  We missed Larry Warford last year; let’s not miss twice.

McGinn excerpt:

GABE JACKSON, Mississippi (6-3, 338, 5.51, 2-3) – Started all 52 games at LG. “He’s big, in the (Larry) Warford class,” said one scout, referring to the Kentucky guard drafted in the third round by Detroit last year. “He moves better than Warford did. He has second-round ability. My issue is if he can pass block.” Strong, tough and a dependable technician. “If you’re a power team he’d be OK,” another scout said. “He’s all right if the (defense) doesn’t move. He’ll come off the ball and hit you.” From Liberty, Miss. “He’s kind of been leaking oil since the season,” said a third scout. “People were kind of high on him early on. Ever since the Senior Bowl he’s come down to earth. Now I see him as just a downhill power guard.”

Would be happy with:  Mason-AU, Garoppolo-EIU, Bryant-Clemson.
Do not want:  Adams, Carey, Williams, McCarron, Joyner.

***

#83 (second third rounder) Dri Archer, RB/WR, Kent.
The “Evans-Gordon outside, Archer-Hawkins inside” set will be unstoppable.  Really, think about it.  Just start with ‘What defensive personnel do I send out to match up with that group of receivers?’ and go from there.  Dri Archer is the biggest do want of the draft.

Would be happy with:  No one.  Want Archer here.
Do not want:  Everyone else.

***

#106 (first fourth rounder) Lache Seastrunk, RB, Baylor.

Whatever is causing Seastrunk’s slide, fourth round seems like a great place to pick up a big fast guy who can catch.  Excerpt:

LACHE SEASTRUNK, Baylor (5-9½, 200, 4.45, 4-5) – Five of his 19 TDs were longer than 68 yards. Played better in 2012. “His problem this year was he was dinged up,” said one scout. “You’re talking about a guy who can fly. He’s better than all the (small) backs.” Posted the best vertical jump (41½ inches) and broad jump (11-2) of the leading RBs. Fourth-year junior had 289 carries for 2,189 yards (7.6) and 18 TDs but caught just nine passes (none in ’13). Wonderlic of 9. “He’s dynamic,” another scout said. “Rare speed. Not very powerful. His deal is he had no receptions. Nine test, lost in protections. Cannot play in the pass game.” Began career at Oregon in 2010 but transferred after being embroiled in recruiting violations. From Temple, Texas.

***

#127 (second fourth rounder) Keith Wenning, QB, BallSt.
Ya know… I keep hearing about how Kyle Shanahan likes a mobile QB but just exactly how did the mobile QB thing play out last go round?  Got him and his dad fired.  So I’m not sure I believe it that Shanny will want a mobile QB.  A big-handed spiral-thrower who knows how to play QB in northern Ohio because he’s from northern Ohio?  Yes, that’s someone who might work in Shanny’s or anyone’s offense.  I have no idea if this is over-drafting on Wenning, but once QBs start getting drafted they go fast.  Take Wenning here or you may be stuck with David Fales.

KEITH WENNING, Ball State (6-2 1/2, 220, 5.01, 5-6) – Four-year starter from Coldwater, Ohio. “He’s more ready to be a pro quarterback than Jimmy Garoppolo,” one scout said. “He can see the whole field. He’s actually reacting on what defenders are doing. Good athlete, good arm.” Passer rating of 91.6 (107.8 in 2013), completion mark of 63%, record of 27-20 and Wonderlic of 29. “He has to see it to pull the trigger,” a second scout said. “Can’t escape. Really smart. Good interview. Worker, intangibles, all that stuff. Kind of a low release. More generic than exceptional.”

***

#145 (fifth round)  Adrian Hubbard, OLB, Bama.
I really don’t know where Hubbard gets drafted.  With his size, I would think earlier than the fifth.  Yet I’ve seen mocks where he projects this far.  Linebackers this size are soon required to protect the seam against all the two TE sets now in the league.

ADRIAN HUBBARD, Alabama (6-6, 257, 4.67, 3-4) – Fourth-year junior with 26 starts. “Got all the measurables,” one scout said. “Just stands and watches. He certainly looks the part, but he doesn’t play the part. They tried to drop him some at the Senior Bowl and the guy struggled. Somebody will take him because he has a great frame and good growth potential. I think he’ll play down.” Finished with 83 tackles (18 for loss), 10 sacks and three big plays. “He stinks,” another scout said. “There’s nothing to him. Low motor. No pass rush. Not very strong. Not explosive.” From Lawrenceville, Ga. “Great basketball player in high school,” a third scout said. “Very outspoken type kid. He’s going to speak up and challenge you.”

***

#180 (sixth round) Jonathan Dowling, S, WKU.
More length in the defensive backfield.  Dowling was a UF recruit who transferred to WKU.  Point is:  he’s an elite athlete but probably needs to add 20 pounds.  Draft him and build him into Kam Chancellor for next year.  HERE is where you take on science projects.  Not at #6 overall.7

***

#218 (seventh round) Colt Lyerla, TE, Oregon.
Lookit.  You interview Lyerla and get a read and you make the call.  No sense on making this pick without research.  But Lyerla would not be the first college student to eff up and some of them do pretty great on their second chance.  Coaches are supposed to be good judges of character and lower-case-c coaches like Pettine really do want to help and make a difference for young men.  I just hope the staff looked into Lyerla because the talent is there.

COLT LYERLA, ex-Oregon (6-4, 242, 4.58, 3-FA) – Quit the team Oct. 6 after 2½ event-filled years in Eugene. Two weeks later, he was arrested for cocaine possession. “I bet he’s off 80% of the teams’ draft boards,” one scout said. “Talented guy but into all kinds of (expletive). I think you can touch him in the sixth or seventh rounds.” Best vertical jump (39) and broad jump (10-8) of all TEs and tied Ebron for swiftest 40. Caught 34 passes for 565 yards (16.6) and 11 TDs. Also played some RB, carrying 13 times for 77. “More of a receiver,” said another scout. “Doesn’t block well. Knowing Ted (Thompson), I don’t think Ted would mess with a guy like that.” Mourned the departure of coach Chip Kelly to the Eagles after his second season and it was all downhill after that. “Drugs, quitting, you name it, it’s happened,” a third scout said. “I would never trust him. I couldn’t imagine anyone taking him with those credentials. No way.” From Hillsboro, Ore. Wonderlic of 24.


That’s:

  1. 1.004 Evans, WR2
  2. 1.026 Fuller, CB2
  3. 2.035 Bucannon, FS-SS
  4. 3.071 Jackson, RG
  5. 3.083 Archer, WR3
  6. 4.106 Seastrunk, RB2
  7. 4.127 Wenning, QB3
  8. 5.145 Hubbard, SLB
  9. 6.180 Dowling, FS
  10. 7.218 Lyerla, TE3

I would guess that a draft like this would be wildly unpopular with a large segment of the fans.  But I think this looks like four and a half starters and even the backups like Seastrunk and Hubbard are sexy athletes.  How viable is it?  Not very, I don’t think… but you never know.  I think Fuller is gone before #26, Hubbard could go a lot earlier.  But guys like Jackson and Seastrunk could slide to these positions.  Guys like Archer and Wenning are going to go higher than the draftniks project.

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Starting to shape up. (Sign Hoyer now.)

So.

Who YOU got?

                  

  1. If we’re all here, we can look back on these scouting reports this time next year. [back]
  2. I smell Andy Dalton. [back]
  3. I don’t know if I’ve done well on this point or not but we won’t know until later this week. [back]
  4. I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the amount of common ground we have this year. [back]
  5. I would support poaching whomever the Ravens are eye-balling. [back]
  6. I hate betting Georgia Tech. [back]
  7. So we’re asking Mingo, drafted specifically for his quickness and speed and agility, to add 30 pounds.  What could possibly go wrong? [back]

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  • saggy

    “People fall in love with the last name. If his last name was something else, I don’t think he’d be picked as high, honestly.”

    um, yeah.

    Many years ago it was this premise that made it very easy for me to decide between Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf.

    One of the best, and most used, quotes in strength facilities across the world (for good reason):
    “If you want to be an Olympic athlete, better pick your parents wisely.”

  • Nick

    I also thank you for the tip on Bob McGinn. I have spent the better part of my day catching up on his articles.

    With Gordon, Cameron, and Hawk, the receiving core is a strength of this team so I don’t agree with spending our 4th pick on a WR. I’d take the QB of my choice if he’s there or Matthews/Robinson or trade down. It’s too bad there’s no Patrick Peterson or Eric Berry in this draft, cause I’d take them in this spot.

    I trust Farmer, I expect whatever he does will make sense and I will be happy about it.

    • enhhh… you still have greg little as your Z. that’s a problem and, imho, a major one and our biggest hole. if you’re a DC wouldnt you ‘force them to beat you with little?’

      you can play more nickel and dime to hide the problem at ILB.

      and at qb, hoyer is very possibly not only not a problem but the answer. how’s it going to taste to use #4 overall on a guy who sits the bench and –through his bench sitting– creates endless drama and sports talk bloviation. ugh.

      ‘have you chosen a starter yet?’ ‘have you chosen a starter yet?’ ‘when will you choose a starter?’ ‘have you chosen a starter yet?’ ‘have you chosen a starter yet?’ ‘have you chosen a starter yet?’ ‘have you chosen a starter yet?’ ‘when will you choose a starter?’ ‘have you chosen a starter yet?’

      this isnt the year to do a circus show at training camp. this is the year to win.

      • nj0

        I think the fear of training camp circuses is overblown. Yeah avoid them if you can, but I wouldn’t pass on a QB I really want just to sidestep what’s just (usually) the media taking the low hanging fruit. That said, I don’t see how anyone can be that high on any of the QBs in this draft.

      • saggy

        i feel the whole “who is the starter” thing is on the coach and GM. Belichick would never stand for that. Do you think Mike Tomlin would allow that?

        • the name youre looking for is parcells who would end it and it would be spectacular.

          • saggy

            i wanted to stay current. But, yes. indeed. Can you imagine the press asking Lombardi if Bart Starr was going to be the starter?

  • Bluedog93

    My wish list:
    1. Watkins (or Evans, if that’s who Farmer really prefers) at #4.
    2. Bridgewater to fall far enough that 26 and some lower picks can be packaged to move up get him.
    3. Verrett at #35. I’d ask for someone taller, but that would be getting greedy.
    4. Gabe Jackson sounds good in the third round.
    5. A running back later on, don’t much care which one because the important thing with running backs is whether they get injured and there’s no predicting that.

    The only thing really missing is an ILB, but you can’t fix everything. I’ll wait for next year for that or hope to get lucky.

    • i know groves gets after the passer but i think he’d be fine-to-good as an ILB. just want him on the field more.

  • mgbode

    Ok, my guys. Quick listing not much ordering of which I prefer at each slot. Just who I think could be there that I would like.

    #4 – trade down (for Gilbert, Evans) OR Sammy, Robinson, Teddy, Clowney

    #26 – trade up (Gilbert/Dennard/Fuller/Clinton-Dix, Ebron, Lee) OR Beckham, Mosley

    #35 – Van Noy, Bitonio, Shazier, Matthews, Ward

    #71 – G.Jackson, Archer, Hyde, Sankey, Christian Jones, Breeland

    #83 – Billy Turner & Dakota Dozier — too nasty OG (I would move either inside) from smaller schools. some refinement needed, but great spot to grab one here IMO. Other: Smallwood, Richardson

    #106 – Seastrunk, Dowling

    #127 – Aaron Murray (probably have to move up for him though – guessing somewhere in the 3rd unless his medical reports are way better or worse than people are letting on).

    #145 – Jaylen Watkins, EJ Gaines, D.Bailey, M.Roberson, Terrence Brooks, Josh Huff, Eric Ward

    #180 – Connor Shaw

    #218 – Morgan Breslin, Marcel Jensen, Shaq Evans, Denicos Allen, Marcus Spruill

    • bupalos

      I’m on board the trade down and I think it’s going to be available because I think each of Manziel, Clowney, and Robinson are going to have at least a few teams that are in heat and I’m thinking one of those guys is still there for our pick. Then having that ammo (and more) to come back up, that’s a great position to be in for this draft. I think that would mean we get one of the top 2 corners and one of the top 2 WR’s, or Mathews if the receivers and corners are gone then Mathews must be there. And then you’ve still got all those quality picks to fire off on LB. The bottom line for me is that this is a strange draft in how few positions have very clear cut consensus #1’s and several where there are 3 comparable guys.

      The more I look at how the talent falls the more I like the idea of 2 midround 1’s, like 8 and 16, rather than 4 and 26. Should be doable.

      Using that strategy, there are a ton of pairs I’d be happy with in the first including Evans/Gilbert

      • actovegin1armstrong

        Bupa, you forgot to carry the 1.

    • saggy

      you and i are both on the same bandwagon since day1.
      However, I’m starting to feel the pull of Manziel. Damn, it would be fun to have that guy.

      • mgbode

        I will not lie. He is very tempting. I think he is extremely risky (regardless of what Craig wants to believe), but tempting, yes.

        file:///C:/Users/micbod01/Downloads/tumblr_mjnlwbfjIo1qbshr5o1_500.gif

  • nj0

    A 9 on the Wonderlic wouldn’t get you into a trade school. How do you know you have to take the test, yet do so poorly? I realize that for some positions scouts really don’t care about score, but it has to be something of a factor. A few draft slots means thousands of dollars, right? And you’re too lazy or ill-prepared to learn some basic test taking skills? Most of it is multiple choice. Guessing randomly should at least get you a 9. (I’m assuming the NFL uses a version of the test that is consistent with the official one.) That’s what worries me about low Wonderlic scores – beyond the obvious, this guy is functionally illiterate. Lack of prep.

    • Scared me, for a second I thought one of my top three scored a nine.
      I will say… we don’t want no cerebral running backs. See hole, hit hole.

      I didn’t track it but if you go through the McGinn reports, I don’t think 9 is rock bottom. I believe there were multiple fives, but I’d have to go back and check.

      • nj0

        Agree to an extent. We’re not talking about rocket science here. Again though, it’s less about smarts and more about basic prep. Kind of like the academic equivalent of coming to the combine out of shape.

        I wonder if teams even really care about the Wonderlic anymore. Considering the time and money that goes into the draft, you’d think teams would have come up with a better measure or test of football-related IQ than the Wonderlic. I’ve proctored the test and I really can’t see how/why it relates to football.

  • mgbode

    1.004 Evans, WR2
    1.026 Fuller, CB2
    2.035 Bucannon, FS-SS
    3.071 Jackson, RG
    3.083 Archer, WR3
    4.106 Seastrunk, RB2
    4.127 Wenning, QB3
    5.145 Hubbard, WLB
    6.180 Dowling, FS
    7.218 Lyerla, TE3
    My personal opinions/thoughts:

    I think we can get Evans if we trade down to 6-8, so I think we should do it. Worst case, he’s gone and we get Justin Gilbert and address WR later (move up from 26 to get Lee). I wouldn’t be heartbroken.

    I don’t think there is a chance Fuller is there at 26 and I don’t want Roby. Gonna have to move up.

    IMO, Buccanon is a SS-only. Very much like a TJ Ward guy. I actually think Dowling is a better FS prospect than him. If we are picking Buccanon to be a ST-demon and a backup SS, then great, but not at #35. Hope Ward drops to that spot if we need a S, otherwise wait.

    Gabe Jackson – you know I wouldn’t complain (and he’s likely a 2nd round pick too), but he is a significant risk if he doesn’t get his act together. If he does, then I don’t think the scheme will matter. Kyle will make it work with a monster if Gabe commits to becoming one. Otherwise, either grab Bitonio in the 2nd or wait for Dozier in the 4th (raw, but from what I have been able to dig up on him, he’s an animal and the LSU game he did not give an inch).

    Dri Archer – IMO, no way he lasts this long. The #1 thing to look for in a speed-RB is their lower-body bulk. Take a look at MoJo and you will see how ridiculously strong his lower body is. Dri is built the same way. It is an absolutely incredible advantage because they have all the speed, but then they have surprising power with it. We don’t need an early RB (and I see him as a hybrid WR-RB), but I would not complain if we use him like Harvin.

    Seastrunk – I really don’t see us taking both Archer and Seastrunk. Seastrunk is another guy I like and he could drop here, which puts a big value on him. He’s not as explosive as Dri and the article I posted sums him up well.

    Wenning – no way this early. he’s a project that needs to get better, learn a whole bunch, and I don’t like his arm strength or athleticism. He’s a rhythm/timing guy to me, which is okay and he seems to be a good kid, but, again, not this early (I think he’s at best a decent backup). We get him in the 6th/7th, then fine. The 4th is for Aaron Murray (if his knee caused him to drop) or Connor Shaw. Both those guys have much, much higher ceilings.

    Hubbard – won’t see me complaing too much about a 5th rounder. I don’t like him too much (great measurables that don’t show up in games and he’s got some interesting quotes about himself. let’s just say he thinks he’s better than he is), but he does have upside.

    Dowling – I’ll be shocked if he’s here in the 6th. we are talking about an ex-Gator here (character issues were too much for even Urban – kicked off team) and he played for Petrino. He does tackle like Shazier (more hit, less wrap), but he’s so good deep and those hits often can jar loose would-be receptions. I think he’s “at latest” a 4th rounder and that is mostly because I think he’s marked as a problem-child.

    Lyerla – hey, a flier TE in the 7th round, why not?

    • i hope berea has a better handle on who will be picked where. just a month ago, i think fuller slotted nicely at 26 but yeah, now, i doubt it too.
      i dont get it with archer but it still seems like he’s being overlooked. even mcginn blew him off.
      dowling is SO skinny. as you know i love him, but i’d draft him to bulk him up. could be a lot of teams thinking the same.
      i dont get the arm strength knock on wenning. i saw at least two (prob more games) in cold windy conditions — at akron (windy rainy, 5TD passes), vs cmu (night, rain, 4 TDs), at niu (cold night, 324 yds) vs miamio (decent day, 27/33-445-6TDs-0ints). point is, i saw that he throws a very tight spiral that cut through the windy. ((compare to bridgewater who didnt throw at combine and then threw flutter balls inside on pro day. sorry.. let it go.)) anyways i think what i said is on mark: take wenning early because some other team is going to see what i see and then you’re picking through the david fales’ of the draft.

      • mgbode

        I’m just not as high on Wenning as you are and I think Fales likely gets UDFA treatment. But, hey, who knows, these are likely late round guys and QBs do not have a high success rate at that point anyway. I’ll take the guy with a 24:1 TD:INT ratio in the SEC last year though.

    • saggy

      I’d be more on-board with Seastrunk if he could pass protect. at all. he’s pretty awful in that regard. While it is not as big of an issue with a guy like Hoyer, who can get the ball out quickly, it would be a real issue with a younger QB like Manziel, Bortles, Carr, or TB (if the Browns go that route).

      • mgbode

        if you draft Seastrunk, then you are NEVER putting him in the backfield to pass protect. He’s either running the ball, going out for passes, or lining up as an H-back.

  • Woods

    Thank you for this post, and thank you for the tip on Bob McGinn. I had forgotten what it was like to read intelligent, well thought out football coverage that didn’t carry the dreaded “sources say” or “word around Berea is…”

    I have two small quibbles with your draft. 1) No ILB was selected and Richardson is still at the top of the depth chart next to Dansby. If you think Hubbard can play in this slot, then this issue is moot. 2) I am all for second chances, especially for tremendous talent, but Lyerla is someone I don’t want on the Browns. My experience with people that have problems with coke is that they are selfish assholes before, during and after they get help. My sweeping generalization of the day.

    • i know right. mcginn doesn’t interject ‘what he thinks’ and he doesnt rely on one source. sounds like he’s got a half dozen guys and spends a fair amount of time compiling this. you do forget what a sports journo is supposed read like if it’s been too long.

      if farmer says to pettine: “i’ve used all the resources i can on the front 7 both in terms of picks and cap. these are your guys, you figure it out.” pettine will be all ‘Challenge Accepted‘ and next thing you know groves and winn are working on the coverage dropbacks. i bet pettine can make it work without a special 3-4 ILB selected. the other factor is that i didn’t fall in love with any of the ILBs. maybe kevin pierre-louis as an athlete but he’s not a prototype linebacker size-wise. (ditto that on shazier and mosely.) so i kinda threw up my hands on picking an ILB.

      you may be right on lyerla as well as the sweeping generalization. no skin if the coaches dont want to touch him. my fall back is Brian Schmiedebusch and i’m not even kidding. the guy can punt.

  • I think I might could behind these picks. Of course, after months of speculation I’ve talked myself into and out of just every possibility for the Browns. The one thing I’ve stuck to is I don’t think they take a QB at 4 just to take one. If they like one of the guys they’ll pull the trigger, if not I just don’t see Farmer getting caught in the vortex of what the media “thinks” the Browns should do.

  • RGB

    Are you assuming Watkins is not available at #4?

    • no i assume watkins is available. i’d rather have evans extra foot of catch radius (4″ taller, 3″ longer arms, 3″ higher vert, 1″ bigger hands). i not only think evans is better than watkins, i think he brings unique physical tools that you see once every five years.

      re watkins: ““He’s not Calvin (Johnson) or Andre Johnson. He’s almost a faster version of Dez Bryant but not as good hands.” “Good player but not great,” a fourth scout said. “There’s a lot of good stuff. But he’s not a real good route runner and it’s almost like he’s gotten too thick in his lower body. Only 6 feet.” <–this is why i love the mcginn articles. you never only rarely find a draftnik willing to buck a trend and be critical about the steamroller prospect (see tavon austin last year). not saying watkins wont be good. but slam dunk top 5 guy? not so sure.

      • mgbode

        I get your argument for Evans over Watkins. Evans is bigger, great in the air, and that is always appreciated and a true advantage.

        However, I have never seen a WR that envelops the ball better with his hands than Sammy. I don’t get how he has worse hands than Dez? And, as you will see in my post about Archer, I think the thick lower body is a major positive, not negative. And, I think you agree with it too.

        Anyway, I won’t be upset with either WR if we take one either at #4 or in a small trade-down (better). I prefer Sammy but it’s not by a ton (and was far before the Orange Bowl as was RGB).

        • actovegin1armstrong

          But bode, please remember that Evans has 10 more sq ft of area with which to drop the ball and then go sit on the bench and sulk.
          Evan was oftentimes wide open because the safeties were worried about his QB running. He lacks separation and while he may be able to extend his arms an extra 371mm, he may just drop the ball anyway. Evans is overrated.

          • awww.
            but on the other hand, maybe we can avoid a having our qb grandstanding for the networks with an animated peptalk that evans doesn’t want to hear. sorry acto… football is an emotional game and it’s clear this isn’t ‘leadership.’ it’s spotlight whoring and i like evans’ reaction of ‘get me away from this.’

          • mgbode

            Watkins didn’t just run bubble screens this season though. Sure, Clemson ran more than a NFL team, but if it works, then you do it. It’s not his fault that Fickell refused to adjust.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            jk,
            I am with you on the made for TV histrionics. When I saw this I thought that Evans showed great restraint. I am certainly not a JFF fan.
            I also think that Watkins is overrated and he may not be any better in the long run than Evans. Watkins does however, get open on his own and he may have more upside. I do not have any huge aversion to Evans and I do not think he will be a complete bust, but he is not 4th pick material. I would even question taking him with the 26th pick. There are other very good value receivers in this draft.

          • so who do you like at 4? (and 26, 35 for that matter?)

          • bupalos

            If I’ve read him right, I think acto is on Matthews at 4, 26, and 35. I’ll double ditto on the JFF crack rage, though I still do think he’s worth a look in the teens or at whatever pick the “have to start him now” impulse ends. He’s pretty smart and can jump around like a rabbit and flip the ball from whatever angle and doesn’t seem to freak out. I think that puts a floor under him. Of all the QB’s there, I’ll be most surprised if he “busts.”

          • actovegin1armstrong

            If the Browns are set on drafting a quarterback, I have liked Connor Shaw all season, he helped me avoid too many cheddar debacles. I do not like drafting QB’s, I frequently mention my penchant for re-treads, but Shaw looks good and from what little I have seen of Tom Savage he would not be a bad choice. Wenning is very good too. If any one of these three kids were put in a take over for Bledsoe situation they may provide at least a year or two of Brady-esque results.
            I am not a big fan of Bilgewater, or Mettenberger, they should be red flagged off the board and I really think that there is no QB in the draft this year worthy of a top 5 pick. The last top five QB was Luck. I still think that RGINJURY went way too high, he has both personality and performance problems.

          • actovegin1armstrong

            4.) Jake Matthews
            26.) Jason Verrett
            35.) Xavier Su’a-Filo

      • saggy

        i like Evans a lot. His numbers are great (and the game play, too).

        people can talk 40 all they want. The two numbers that excite me the most are vertical and 20-yd shuttle. they show explosion (vert is best predictor of top-end speed and explosiveness along with broad jump), agility, and coordination. With Evans’s height and weight, his time in the shuttle (faster than Watkins) is fantastic.

        one small-ish concern is that Evans is 231# and was only able to rep the bench for 12. There are a lot of 185# guys who can do that. It makes me wonder how effective he’ll be against those stronger DBs who won’t let him off the line. Watkins repped 16 at 211 pounds.

        And the whole “gotten too thick in his lower body” (about Watkins) thing is a load of crap. That really sucked for Barry Sanders, too.

  • GRRustlers

    Very happy to read the comments on Richardson.

    As someone who has watched every snap of Colorado football (remember fan is short for fanatic or just pure insanity) I can’t put into words how special this kid is.

    He is playing with literally nothing around him. A collection of people playing QB (with the exception of Sefo the 2nd part of this year) who will be sitting next to me selling insurance shortly. The only thing an opposing team had to plan for and he still put up numbers.

    If he weighed 20 more pounds and played at a Top 25 program he is a first round talent.

    Go to the 1:02 mark and check out the hands on this kid. If you can fly and can catch the ball. Good things. Man. I have nightmares about this kid ending up in New Orleans and him running wild against the Browns in the home opener.

    http://www.ralphiereport.com/colorado-buffaloes-football/2013/9/9/4709390/colorado-buffaloes-central-arkansas-bears-video-highlights

    • i kept seeing his name in the prospects list but never had a handle on his ‘thing’ until i read the mcginn piece. sounds mike wallace-ish. seems like there’s always a need for field stretchers.

      • mgbode

        Yes, I think he struggles initially unless he gets plugged into a great situation because he had to do too much for the Buff, but having a “go deep” guy is always needed and one of his great attributes is adjusting to the ball in the air.

  • maxfnmloans

    Ive been thinking this the past couple days, and since it’s silly season OT, why not?

    1- I think the Browns are taking a QB at 4
    2- I think Jimmy really likes John Manziel
    3- I think Farmer prefers Teddy B. (the QB we have heard the absolute least about from Berea)
    4- I think the recent slew of QB signings is a smokescreen
    5- I think we’re taking Teddy B at #4
    6- 3 QBs will be off the board by the time the Bills are on the clock at 9

    Now, if it were up to me, I’d take Bortles at 4. We have Hoyer, who I think will be good enough to warrant letting Bortles learn on the sidelines for a year (barring injury, which is a real possibility. When was the last time a Browns QB played all 16 games?) If we do this, the worst case is that Hoyer is awesome and we have a QB conundrum. That’s a problem I don’t mind having.

    As far as projecting the rest, there’s just too many moving parts. I’d hope that they try to move up from 26 to get a solid CB2 (I think Dennard, Gilbert and Fuller will be gone by 26). I don’t want them to give up 35 to do it, but if Fuller is around somewhere around 22 and they can use one of the extra thirds to move up 4 spots, then yes, please.

    Also, I have long thought Allen Robinson is going to make a solid (if perhaps unspectacular) pro. He locates the ball well in the air, catches with his hands, and was one of the hardest workers in practice on the team from what I have read. Obviously, Evans/Beckham are “better” prospects, but I think WR is deeper than CB, and I also think upgrading the secondary is more urgent than upgrading the WR corps. Also, one point on Mike Evans- the scout said “with the way the rules are now there no way he’s not getting every call imaginable”. I wish I had a nickel for every time I heard the exact opposite thing about Calvin Johnson. A new line of thinking emerged this season (perhaps earlier) that Calvin is so big and strong that CB’s could hit him and not really knock him off his spot/route, and as a result it would go unseen or uncalled. Sometimes, that size and strength can actually work against physical marvels it appears.

    I like what you’re saying about Seastrunk. Remember this is the kid who was so good, Chip Kelly paid a “scouting service” 25 grand for “information” to help retain his services in Eugene. If he’s around in the 4th, take him and don’t look back.

    Mike Schofield is going to be a solid RT. Lewan did get the lion’s share of the attention, but the truth is, Michigan’s interior line was 3 layers of sedimentary rock BELOW awful this past season, and Schofield did a lot of things to help even get it to that level. He worked with the underclassmen on and off the field to aid their preparation and was more of a “leader” in team meetings and the locker room than Lewan. Lewan is a heckuva player with good instincts, light feet and all the measurables, but at times showed flashes of immaturity. By all acocunts, Schofield was the most “steady” member of the offensive line in Ann Arbor last year. And, don’t forget, his offensive coordinator was Al Borges, whose solution to the interior line sucking was to move Schofield to the left side of the line and line him up outside of Lewan at TE for a “power” look. Which was hilariously awful, because everyone knew exactly what was coming each and every time they lined up in that formation. Schofield didn’t say a word about it, he just did what the coaches asked to the best of his ability. If the Browns get him in the 3rd, I’d be plenty happy. Also, Schofield was recruited to Michigan by Rich Rodriguez, architect of a zone-read spread running offense. He has the ability to excel in a ZBS.

    Last, I think if you want Archer, it’s going to have to be at 71 (and maybe higher than that).

    • i cant back it up but i think jimmy had a hand in the cant have too many pass rushers and mingo draft last year. if so, i hope he learned his lesson. dont need a woody johnson.

      agreed there’s way too much moving parts for the rest of it to bear any semblance to reality. i too think fuller at 26 is a long shot, but you never know.

      i was kind of a seastrunk nay-sayer throughout the season (gimmick briles offense!!) but it reached new levels of silliness at the combine where his 4.45 40 was a disappointment. like… ok it’s time to start buying low on this guy.

      your schofield-rodriguez-ZBS connection is a terrific.

      i should think you’re right about where to take archer… i definitely read too much walterfootball where archer is currently mocking at 4.118 to pittsburgh (what a nightmare that would be). but then again, they’ve been giving us carlos hyde at 26 for the last two weeks so eff em.

      • zarathustra

        Re: can’t have too many pass rushers. Actually, it’s kind of true.

        http://grantland.com/the-triangle/dont-stop-frontin-the-mind-boggling-multiplicity-of-nfl-defenses/

        Either way, I don’t disagree with much that you did. Totally agree on “no” to mack. I would prefer trading down or one of the tackles to Evans but could probably live with it. Agree on fuller too. I have disagreements here and there with who you included or left off (sankey) but not too many. The biggest issue I have is wr/te were there doesn’t appear to be any te listed. Starting at 35 I would be very interested in some of these tight ends that may slip. Not only does it allow all types of creativity with two tight end sets, but also would serve as jordan Campbell free agent insurance.

        • mgbode

          I also agree on “no to Mack.” I would prefer trading down some to gain extra picks and getting Shazier or Van Noy in the 2nd along with an OG or FS. I don’t think the downgrade from Mack to those guys is enough to warrant not fixing another starting position.

          and, I’m interested in Ebron with a trade up from 26 if we can pull it off. so, i’m all-aboard that 2-TE train if we can pull it off.

          • zarathustra

            If you like Ebron that much I would prefer moving back to 12-ish from four over trading up from 26.
            Or pick up another 2nd in a trade back for gilbert, then say receiver at 26 ( m. Lee may be slipping), then shazier or van noy at 35, and with 2b maybe ASF is still there–though doubtful.

          • mgbode

            I doubt Lee lasts until 26, but would absolutely love a Gilbert, Lee, Van Noy w/ an extra 2nd for a guy like Bitonio. That is a dream scenario for me.

            For Ebron, I don’t think we could afford to drop any lower than the Titans pick if we wanted to be sure we got him. I am actually good with many scenarios in the 1st round here, which likely means the Browns will take someone else, but that is what this week is about.

          • saggy

            Bitonio is someone that i think will be excellent. I would be a joyful soul if the Browns drafted him.

          • mgbode

            and, if things ever get into a brawl on the field, I want the MMA-trained OL on our side of things.

          • mgbode

            just bumping this entire thread up. made my day to re-read everyone’s pre-draft comments.

        • saggy

          who’s jordan campbell?
          /

    • mgbode

      Not so sure about taking a QB at 4. And Farmer has been real good about hiding his intentions, so it is anyone’s guess (though I think it’s pretty safe that it will not be an OT).

      Completely agree that none of the top3 CBs will be there at #26 and think that regardless of who we want (CB-Fuller, WR-Lee, TE-Ebron, etc.) that we are likely trading up a bit to get him. That is also why I want to trade down from #4 a little to obtain the assets we need to do it. I would rather have 2 guys in the 8-18 range than #4 and #26 for this particular draft.

      I could write a ton on Seastrunk, but these guys already summed up almost all of my thoughts perfectly and they even pair him up with the NFL RB whom I think he most resembles (Ahmad Bradshaw):
      http://www.footballoutsiders.com/futures/2013/futrues-baylor-rb-lache-seastrunk

      Also, agree on Archer. He’s likely a late 2nd round guy I think.

      • maxfnmloans

        Yeah the QB at 4 is my “wild guess” of the draft season. Can’t back it up, just a hunch.

    • jpftribe

      I just can’t see Farmer taking a QB at 4. It makes no sense to me whatsoever. This is Locker, Ponder, Gabbert all over again.

      I haven’t read a single scouting report that says any of these guys can start year one. And they all have serious flaws to overcome. Bortles 3rd down percentage was horrible. Manziel has to ‘learn a new game’ and Bridgewater has trouble making the throws. Taking one of these guys is exactly what the post expansion Browns would do, and Farmer just has to be aware of that. He has got to break that mould.

      Conversely, you can take at least two top tier receivers, a number of tackles, potentially the biggest freak DE to come out in years, and yes I would take Mack. Sheard is a UFA next year and the Browns are likely bumming that Kruger is guaranteed 2015. Mack may be a luxury in 14 and a need in 15.

      The Texans, Rams, Vikings, Jags and Raiders have proven very good at reaching for non-starting caliber QB’s. Browns have to get out of that club.

      • nj0

        Outside of David Carr, the Texans have drafted one QB in the first four rounds (Dave Ragone back in ’03). They’ve drafted four others all 5th round or lower. TJ Yates won (aka did not lose) them a playoff game. So no, the Texans track record for reaching for non-starting is not there imo.

        I guess you could say the trade for Matt Schaub was a “reach”, but personally I think this is overly harsh judgment on Schaub. While he had a disastrous 2013, he also was a 64.6% passer with a 90.6 rating over 6+ seasons. He was on some really good offensive teams and some really bad ones too. Yes, he had flaws, but until 2013 he was always one of the best 20 or so QBs in the league. Circa 2006 Matt Schaub was worth two-2nd rounders.

        Sorry for taking such offense at such a small part of such a substantial comment.

        • jpftribe

          Fair points, I was referring to Carr and Schaub. Probably not fair to put Schaub in that bucket.

          • mgbode

            They gave up a fair amount to acquire Schaub. I think it is fair though he proved capable of starting for multiple years (though not a championship level guy). His flaws just got bigger as the years went by and he couldn’t adjust. It happens.

          • nj0

            I think he was a QB that you could have won a championship with.

          • mgbode

            I guess. He would have likely been a weak link on such a team, but he did have a nice run the only time he’s gotten to the playoffs (2012 v. Cinci and NE).

            But, that’s part of the point. He’s 46-42 with Houston. He was able to help them make the step up to competitive and they had some bad defenses in that time, but he never felt like the guy that was going to put the team on his back and “win” it. Could just be my perception of him though.