Cleveland Schadenfreude.

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Assuming rejection of a ‘just following orders’ defense these people are criminals going to jail.
Still feeling great about your FBI?

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In the midst of a rush to judgement concerning Jimmy Haslam, perhaps we can take a step back this weekend.  I’m not sharing any of the most common emotions I’ve seen expressed on this issue.  I hope I’m not the only one.

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What’s your deal Kanick?  After all, you helped kick this off.

When news of this raid broke I came down hard on Haslam and PFJ.  That was when I thought we were dealing with serious charges and naively thinking Justice was being used to effect a greater good.  Now it just looks like a power play of dubious value and born of questionable motivation.

In Tuesday’s post, I explored any number of probable outcomes that would cause government armed forces to enter forcibly a private enterprise, confiscate property, and first confine, then eject workers from corporate buildings.  IT. IS. A. SERIOUS. ASSERTION. OF. GOVERNMENT. AUTHORITY.  Breaking into a place of business with weapons brandished should only be used for good reason.  A ‘good reason’ being the serious criminal activities or white collar crimes on the scale of:

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Guess the company that was not raided this week!
Hint: this company’s business is not truck stops.
Hint: their operating margin is greater than 3%.
Hint: this company is not based in Knoxville, TN.

  • Enron, $25,000,000,000 in assets;
  • Lehman, $138,000,000,000 in Federally-backed advances;
  • AIG, $150,000,000,000 in FRBNY exposure and the life-or-death of GE and GM held through their Credit Default Swaps.

Were public or stockholder monies of that scale at risk and so forcing the drastic intervention?
Nope.  Hell, it couldn’t be a billion dollars, the company only made around $600,000,000 (against $29B in sales).  Not AIG here.

Ok then, maybe we’re dealing with the sex-slavery trade known to occur at truck-stops; FBI has been trying to clean that up.
Nope.

Bribing of public officials in return for sweetheart land development schemes?
Unh-uh.

Price gouging?
No.

What this raid was about (ostensibly) is your government prosecuting PFJ for shorting their customers in a rebate program.  The sum total of the missing rebates is not known, Kanick wagers that it will be under $10,000,000 over five years.

Small potatoes.  Small potatoes with just a whiff of caveat emptor that might apply to the customers; how do they not know what they’re supposed to be getting back?

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Nothing says criminal high-finance fraud like a mustard bungalow in Nashville.
(FBI served warrant here… this a target.)

A crime, to be sure.  But there are levels of crime magnitude; discretion on what is and is not prosecuted;  how the prosecution is executed.  Discretion plays a key role; not everything is enforced in the same way.  Anyone bet on the Masters last weekend?  Ok, that’s almost all of you… anyone have 30 cops break in and take your hard drives?  Right, thought not.  Levels of magnitude.  Prosecutorial discretion.  

Was any used here?

The way this played out was the FBI scaring the shit out people who are pretty much just doing their job.  (Even Haslam was rattled as you could tell when the ‘candidly’ meter clicked nine times yesterday.)  The women pictured above are named prominently in the affidavit.  One is the pricing coordinator, two are inside sales people who support outside reps.  These are the people who actually applied the rebates. They’re the ‘good Germans’ who were ‘just following orders.’  Think that’ll fly with the FBI or AG?  Think you’d feel good having your future held in the hands of either agency?  I wouldn’t.

Bet these women never saw this coming when they got their jobs which I’m guessing pays south of 30k/yr.

Will they be charged?  Do they get a pass?  Who decides?  Think they’re scared shitless?  HELL YES.  Intimidated?  Yes.  You think anyone in this transcript has ever seen the inside of a jail cell?  Doubtful.

All these facets add up to easy intimidation targets for your FBI, your government.

Maybe these are things to consider before gleefully enjoying the take-down of just another ego-centric, NFL-team-owning plutocrat.

And what end is being served?  Don’t kid yourself that the FBI is looking out for the poor little trucker.  If they were, they could send a notice of action to PFJ and you’d have Jimmy stroking checks this weekend.  This action this week will lead to a two year court proceeding and what will the little trucking firms get paid in this time?  Zero.

That we’re even talking about PFJ rebates seems most peculiar.  How did this get on the FBI’s radar?  Why isn’t that in the probable cause affidavit?  Shouldn’t it be?  Otherwise, seems like the Justice Department can just go through yellow pages and scare the shit out people until they talk.  Without any process or checks, there’s little difference between the power of the regional FBI Director and Lubyanka-era Beria.

Last point:  If the FBI could enlist a CHS-2 in every Fortune 100 company and set him to work non-stop for six months attempting to trap his co-workers, every Fortune 100 company in the country could be subject to property and data confiscation.  And to see how quickly these people are frightened by the FBI into full cooperation, you can see how it really wouldn’t be hard for the FBI to shut down any business in the country.

If you don’t have a problem with that, you really should.

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Who does this Haslam think he is earmarking $1B and trying to build the Browns into a winning franchise. OUT!!! Do you hear me?? OUT!!
O the disgrace he has brought to fair Cleveland.

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More people withheld judgement on Shurmur.

Don’t let any issues of due process or concerns about FBI intimidation or stop for a minute to consider the potential abuse of power:

The Cleveland Browns fan is in HIGH DUDGEON.

My God.  The humanity.  The carnage.  Jimmy Haslam, the FBI & the 158 Pages That Will Cost Him The Browns!  Who knew that trucking companies had such champions in northeast Ohio?  Oh wait.  They don’t have a love for truckers.

What then?

Cheddar Frowns forum friend NeedsFoodBadly and I mixed it up yesterday and at one point he took offense to being accused of groupthink; that he thought for himself.  I know this to be true of NFB.  But my point behind the ‘groupthink’ is simply this:  to my knowledge this is the first post raising any level of defense for a person who, in this country, is presumed innocent.  Groupthink.  If there has been a kind word said on behalf of Jimmy Haslam that has not come out of Knoxville, not come from a person who knows him, I’m looking forward to reading it.  It’s the avalanche of knowing-ness, coupled with willful naïveté of how the world works in competitive sales businesses, that more than anything prompted me to take a second look at this.

(You weren’t in Cheddar, NFB?  This year then?)

What I’ve determined, based on the reactions I see on the sites I visit, is that Northeast Ohio seems to have, and in abundance, a sense of righteousness married with a strong disdain for rich folks.  Admittedly, it’s not a great job-creation strategy.  But being outraged all the time… does it feel good?  Is it a using-the-internet phenomenon?  Are there quiet moments the next day where reflection and measured evaluations take root?

As a twitter-er given sometimes give to outburst (unintended) and hyperbole (intended), I know there are times I’d like a do over.  But whenever I see such mass schadenfreude I wonder what went wrong and has it always been so.  I do.  I’m not a spiritual guy, but even so, it strikes me as perfectly un-Christian it is to take such joy in the hardship of others.  Even –especially– the hardship of the guilty.  Judge not lest ye be judged.   

Can people really be so harsh when so many lives are being traumatized at PFJ?  I don’t believe this.

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Well, this is inconvenient.

I understand that larding up an affidavit with useless crap is a time honored legal traditional.  But it’s going to get more and more awkward if media like the Plain Dealer follow up on every name entered (good job here, PD).  For example here we find a PFJ victim who is not a victim:

Unlike Morehouse and Western, Owen Shrock said he did not notice a problem with Pilot Flying J. Then he saw his company’s name in the affidavit Friday morning.

“I had no idea,” said Shrock, the owner of Shrock Trucking of Springfield, Mo., a company with 51 trucks.

The document says sales officials at Haslam’s company wanted to change the price discount of the business without telling him. Shrock said that he has not found any financial irregularities and doubts Pilot Flying J shorted him.

So that’s weird.  Here’s an ‘unsophisticated victim’ named in the warrant.  He checked his record; he’s good.  How many others are in this boat?  Do we have to suffer all 100 pages of CHS-2 flagrant screwing of friends to find this data?

But just what was supposed to be the crime committed on Shrock Trucking?  From the affidavit:

CHS-2: You know we were in, uh, I was riding with John, and Kevin Clark called me about Shrock Trucking.
CRUTCHMAN: Oh, that was .. that’s on the agenda. What about Shrock Trucking? Something about relationships?
CHS-2: Well, Ben was out with Todd Wilson.
CRUTCHMAN: Umm hmm.
CHS-2: And they came in and offered some stupid discounts. Uh, like in Oklahoma City all across forty and forty-four.
CRUTCHMAN: Right, right.
CHS-2: And basically what John said was.. I mean on the phone, I was on the phone on the phone, on my speaker phone in my car in Seattle, was we’ll match the discounts in certain places and then after about three or four months, change the discounts in some other places and hope they don’t catch ’em.
CRUTCHMAN: Right.

Whooaa!!  What’s that?  Matching a discount and then going back to normal price??

Yeah, get Holder on the line:  we need to shut PFJ down.  Spin up the Browns fans:  we need to have about a dozen posts calling for Haslam to step down and bemoaning our station.

Or… and this is just me talking, take it for what it’s worth:  know that this sort of thing goes on in most any company in a competitive market with a commissioned sales force and all you need is a willing CHS-2 to shut down almost any business in that category.  Which reminds me…

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Not for nothing, CHS-2 is a douche-bag, no?

Henry Hill thinks CHS-2 is a dick.

For you ‘Get Jimmy’ folks who are still all angry and such as… how do you feel riding with CHS-2?  How many taped convos did he have in the past six months?  How many friends did he screw over?  Do you really think his conscience was troubled by the ethical dilemmas here?  Think he’s a Norma Rae for the 2010s do you?

It’s hard to pick the slimiest activity by CHS-2 but I’m going to go with ‘tricking the 25k/yr pricing coordinator.’  Here’s CHS-2 working with the patient and helpful and surely not well paid, Lori McFarland.  Listen carefully and you’ll hear his Denzel-Washington-in-Philadelphia:

Okay, if you don’t mind, explain to me, like, I mean, I’ve always let Karen take care of everything and I don’t understand how, you know, the ins and the outs of our system, so we produce the discount sheets.

Clever guy, huh?

I won’t bore you, but suffice it to say,,, this was the first and only time any Regional Sales Manager took an interest in Lori’s Ascend database system and the conversation must have left her thinking, ‘That was weird’ and ‘CHS-2 an odd duck.’

This guy is calling up co-workers, and really, co-workers become friends, setting up meeting after meeting after meeting… expressly to trap his friends (trapping the women in the office mostly) and, if all goes well,,, send them to jail?  What a guy.  He’s either the worst kind of dick or something is being held over his head.

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Truly a ‘family’ business.

Quick sidebar but worth noting:
One of the things that struck me in the affidavit was how small PFJ seems to be at the corporate HQ.  I also took away that the workers were tight the with each other and it’s a good place to work.  It seems a family business, on multiple levels.  I’ve worked for this company or a clone of it.  I know these people.

If I’m right about this, that Haslam runs a $29B business and is able to keep a family feel to it…?  Well…  salut Jimmy Haslam and well done.

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Pre-emptive bag of SHHH.

To anyone contemplating a response along the lines of ‘Kanick condones fraud;’ sanctimonious proclamations about respect for the law; ‘What about sympathy for the victims?’  … here’s a youtube for you and it’s saying SHHH.

The point of this post is that whatever PFJ did, as per the warrant, it doesn’t rise to police state law enforcement tactics.  These tactics are both the armed entry and the clear intimidation of their witnesses.  This is not anything to cheer for me.  I’m not even sure I’m issuing warrants if I’m the judge:

  • This couldn’t be settled in a way that doesn’t devastate dozens of innocent people?  
  • Why is it you’re investigating PFJ FBI?  
  • How is it they got on your radar?

And the greater point is to stop and weigh more the impact this is having on the lives of many decent people.  I know I have.

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  • What I’ve determined, based on the reactions I see on the sites I visit, is that Northeast Ohio seems to have, and in abundance, a sense of righteousness married with a strong disdain for rich folks. Admittedly, it’s not a great job-creation strategy. But being outraged all the time… does it feel good? Is it a using-the-internet phenomenon? Are the quiet moments the next day where reflection and measured evaluations take root?

    As a twitter-er given sometimes give to outburst (unintended) and hyperbole (intended), I know there are times I’d like a do over. But whenever I see such mass schadenfreude I wonder what went wrong and has it always been so. I do. I’m not a spiritual guy, but even so, it strikes me as perfectly un-Christian it is to take such joy in the hardship of others. Even -especially- the hardship of the guilty. Judge not lest ye be judged.

    Can people really be so harsh when so many lives are being traumatized at PFJ? I don’t believe this.

    What does any of this mean if the “strong disdain for rich folks” is perfectly or even largely justified? What is it about this world that tells you that it isn’t? When the folks who you passively aggressively refer to here have gone to lengths to explain what their problems are with “rich folks” today, especially the “rich folks” at issue here, and you don’t engage on any of that in writing garbage about “lives being traumatized at PFJ,” you leave the reader to conclude that your head is jammed quite a ways up your ass.

    Please take the Frowns logo off of this site. Thanks.

  • Excellent sir. Bravo

    To continue a point I made on Reboot the other day, when I was in the office that got raided and our servers taken away at gunpoint, you know who ended up going to jail for everything that went down? Not the company owner, who had enough cash and connections to get a good lawyer…not the real estate agents who had either some insuation in the process or good lawyers themselves…not the appraiser who came in with inflated valus for the homes in question, as he was only “part” of the scheme…the only person who went to jail was the 60 year old Title Agent, who was just doing her job, making about 50k a year (as middle management), and doing what the Owner told her to do.

    I’ve seen it happen, in real life. You probably are closer to the truth than anyone who disagrees with you realizes.

  • NeedsFoodBadly

    What up, Kanick. Re: Cheddar Bay, I participated two years ago, but bowed out last year out due to some financial considerations. Might be back on the board next year, we shall see.

    There’s a lot to unpack in this post, and maybe I’ll get to some more of it later, but off the top of my head:

    1) It seems like you’re becoming more set on the idea that this investigation is all bullshit – I’m not sure if this is due to more time thinking about the subject, or if getting your hackles raised on the Frowns site has you playing the role of contrarian/devil’s advocate (my thinking personally works this way sometimes) or some combination thereof. This is also my biggest bone of contention – I didn’t have a problem with what you’re now regarding as your infamous “prostitution” sting post because it was talking about possibility, and long-shots and just chewing general speculation. If you’d said “HASLAM WAS RUNNING UNDER AGED HOOKERS FOR SURE,” I think more people would’ve taken umbrage. My big issue now is that you seem (and correct me if I’m wrong) 90% sure that this is some act of political retribution, and that what we’re seeing is the beginning and end of the investigation. I would have much less of an issue if you said “hey, maybe the politics are a consideration here, maybe not” or if you conceded that the testimony leading to the raid is only the TIP of the iceberg (which I think it probably is).

    2) I think your numbers for the scam they were running (and it was a scam – they weren’t maximizing profit from their customers and practicing aggressive sales techniques – they were reneging on contracts in order to hold back money owed to their clients [this is theft]) are woefully low. Under $10 million dollars over five years? I’ll take that bet, and I’ll tell you why – they are on record for scamming one (1!) one client for six million bucks alone – and it seems like they were running this scam on tens/hundreds of clients. That’ll add up. Not to mention that alone is mail fraud, which is a federal offense, etc. etc. etc.

    3) The sob story about the employees being subject to a scary raid doesn’t fly with me. The feds had on TAPE the fact that the company was moving the records to a location that could be BURNED in the event of a raid – so some of these folks knew what they were doing was illegal and were prepping for just this eventuality. Who has more culpability? The law enforcement officers who had to move in quickly to ensure vital evidence wasn’t destroyed? OR THE EMPLOYERS WHO PUT THEIR EMPLOYEES INTO A SITUATION WHERE THEY HAD TO DECIDE TO CONDONE OR PARTICIPATE IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITY? It was the management ordering illegal activity that bears the blame for any psychological distress – not the feds. So if you feel bad for the rank and file workers, you HAVE to blame the company culture/management that essentially coerced them to participate in fraudulent, criminal acts.

    Kanick, my man – it’s caught on tape that these guys were engaging in theft. They know they were engaging in theft (see the comments regarding the burning of the files, the order not to screw with the Postal Service account, etc). My estimate is that it will be in the 100s of millions of dollars, at the very least. So this is the baseline.

    This doesn’t bring into account all the rumors of bribing of officials, et al, which are certainly still in play, as this is very early into the investigation (a fact I cannot stress strenuously enough). Wait until the indictments come down and then you’ll have a better picture of what happened. If it’s just something about fraud under 10 million bucks, I’ll fully agree with you that a raid like this was nutty. I highly highly highly doubt that will end up being the case.

    And to preempt some of your earlier responses, yes, the use of political organs for personal gain happens. Democrats and Republicans have both done it and are capable of doing it. But this doesn’t pass the smell test for me because what’s the point? Intimidation? Better, more subtler ways of doing it. Retribution? Jimmy and his brother are HARDLY the most visible anti-Obama/Federal government dudes out there – there’s 100 better targets to go after (and if, as you say, most Fortune 500 companies are involved in illegal activity, they would be able to nail them easily).

    Anyways, that’s enough for now. Oh, one last bit: regarding NEO disdain for rich folks, don’t take the Frowns comments section as representative as a whole. My personal experience in the area runs the political spectrum and I couldn’t even hazard a guess for the #s. Obviously Cuyahoga County runs Democrat, but that’s the story in basically every city/metropolitan county so no big surprise there. Anyhow.

    My disorganized, long-winded 2 cents.

    • dont apologize for disorganized and long-winded. there’s precedent for that and it’s right above us on this webpage. hell, i set out to start this reply to with a crisp three bullets summarizing my problems with the PFJ story and couldnt do it. so i’ll just respond to your points:

      1a. yes, guilty, on feeling a need to offer counter-balance to the dialog on frowns. guilty too of being surprised that alternate POVs are met with such resistance. for such an erudite forum, there’s often a strident unwillingness to explore other possibilities.
      1b. i don’t have a 90% certainty of political retribution. but i have a hard time squaring the (imo) heavy handed interdiction with the probable cause affidavit. it makes me ask, why? could be nothing and that’s just the FBI’s way of doing business. but you do have a major republican player here and you do have an AG who’s been held in contempt of congress; do have an IRS that targeted karl rove’s non-profit for investigation. (i know you’ve asked for more examples and i’m fairly sure there are more.. i have not wanted to take on this research project and you and i have an ongoing disconnect until i do. stipulated.) we also have a president who works in the politics of envy and whose strategy has been a bit of bread and circuses (gun control, gay marriage, trayvon) on divisive issues that distract from the annual trillion dollar spending deficits. i hope not to have to debate whether the above is true or not; to me, this is how the current administration does business. against that background, i don’t think it out of line to wonder if there’s been some additional vigor dedicated to this investigation.
      1c. the reactions to raising this possibility included paste eater and tin hat; i found this just disappointing. i suspect i’d have received a standing O if i’d leveled the same insinuation against GWB. i think it a problem when devotion to political agenda trumps intellectual curiosity. these are thoughts i hoped to avoid presenting but i must cop to them.

      but i say again: i’m not saying this is Justice Dept dirty tricks. i’m saying in the absence of how this got on the FBI’s radar, it’s out there as a possibility.

      2. i went through the affidavit and the only confirmed numbers i saw were for morehead and it was 146564.55 over seven years. the western incident is settled (with the jet). other that that, we have sales guys acting out in a boys club environment. we don’t even have the terms of sale agreements which surely are loosely-worded given oil’s cost fluctuations. so what i see is a probable cause based on intimidation of witnesses to enforce contracts whose terms are unknown to prosecute an alleged theft/fraud of some unknown amount of money. this seems soft to me; this seems dangerously close to police state stuff.

      3a. every company has compliance policies for their data. my company sells a data archiving product and its governance/compliance editions feature a time-bomb where emails greater than the retention period are securely zero-ed out. you won’t find any trading houses with emails older than seven years because that’s what SEC 17a-4 requires. you’re assuming a malice aforethought; i’m seeing sound data management policy.
      3b. it’s 95% certain that burning tapes is not an effective evidence destroying technique. a 29b company would have disaster recovery and business continuity strategies for their data — data needs to be available at an alternate location so the business can run in the event of a planned/unplanned outage. backups now are also replicated to offsite data centers. in the unlikely event that they still use a tape-based backup, those tapes are stored off-site in an Iron Mountain or equivalent. so the urgency angle is probably overplayed; there are three copies of their data accessible. no i cant say this with certainty, but with high probability.

      if the dollars involved turn out to be 100s of millions of dollars, i will cheerfully say: whoa, i got that wrong didn’t i? i’ve been wrong before here and owned it; i’ll be wrong again, i’m sure.

      there other points to talk about which bother me — schadenfreude, caveat emptor, CHS2 — but that’d just muddy it more.

      good talk; thanks for dropping by.

      • NeedsFoodBadly

        Your data backup point is great. Did you catch the part in the transcript where they talk about how they try to do the “manual rebate” program as much as they can by hardcopy so as to limit the electronic records of what they’re doing? The participants in the program were trying to limit the electronic trail because they KNEW they were committing malfeasance.

        Is that sound data management policy to you? Good sales tactics to you?

        This isn’t caveat emptor. This is THEFT. Plain and simple, these dudes KNEW they were running a grift, and that’s what they were proud of. It’s right there in the transcript.

        • “Never write if you can speak; never speak if you can nod; never nod if you can wink.”

          i cant tell you how many times my ex mentioned this saying to me and it wasn’t legal; just good irish sense.

          as for the grift, up above there are also sales guys talking shite about screwing shrock trucking who, it turns out, was not screwed. i mean, we have to wait and see how this plays out.

          i will laugh, though, if this gets tried in front of a knoxville jury.

  • motts

    1. At the end of the day, if the company was screwing someone (and no I normally do no worry about the rights of trucking companies) it is not right. Just because it does not meet the threshold of of some of the worst corporate fleecings in American history does not make me sympathetic to PFJ. I feel that this sort of crap is imbedded throughout our society. Buying a car is a great example. I have to do 2 months of research to buy a car so I can get the thing without paying an extra 700-1200 dollars. I am not sure it has gotten better or worse historically…thing of the snake oil examples in history, but you get my point. Feds generally don’t go to the trouble of what we are seeing in this case unless their is a pretty strong body of evidence. I am going to wait and see, let the process play out….my initial bias is to trust the government, see if the procedures of their investigation holds up to scrutiny, see if what they hypothesize about the extent of the abuse is correct, and pray that Jimmy does not get linked this mess or the Browns will be for sale AGAIN!

    • BilliardsBum

      I consign the above post. I appreciate the counterpoint Kanick, but most of the arguments were pretty soft. In all probability Haslam was complicit in fraud and will be held accountable. How that translates into the stability of the Browns, I am not certain but at a minimum it is a very dark stain on the organization and his character.

  • supermadelf

    Objective, subjective, blah, blah, blah. Balls, Kanicki. Big, shiny and made of brass.

  • Wasn’t referring to you, was referring to dimoko. To labor under the misapprehension that someone is being objective just because they’re taking a contrarian standpoint is intellectually lazy. Blogs are an inherently subjective medium. Being subjective and being wrong are not synonymous, nor is being objective and being right

    • no no, i got it, reply below. i’d applied to me too, so i replied there.

      to your greater point, life is subjective. but yes this is more ‘counter-point’ than it is ‘objective.’ it tries to be objective. even objectivity is informed by its environment.

      this piece was prompted because i had yet to see an exploration of the other side of this story. in so doing, i gained more empathy for the PFJ people. i think it’s worth a look.

      and i say with no irony, that there have been abuses of govt power repeatedly throughout history. i dont think that’s a partisan perspective, it’s not meant to be one.

  • “Northeast Ohio seems to have, and in abundance, a sense of righteousness married with a strong disdain for rich folks [who, by all indications, behave in an immoral manner]”

    /Fixed

    • i’ve been a customer-facing field sales guy or tech person since the mid-80s. multiple industries, multiple regions. there’s an expression that is common to every industry and area: Dont leave money on the table.

      a lot of people not in sales wouldnt know, but getting the best sale (ie, the best most money or best terms of sale for your product) is a badge of honor within the [admitted] boys club that is [generally] field sales. this accounts for the coarse/crass banter between reps in the affidavit… it’s nothing more than a dick-measuring contest and could almost be written off as a sociological residue from 5,000 years ago.

      speaking hypothetically and leaving the fraud of this case out: is getting the max amount from a customer for your product immoral?

  • zarathustra

    Booo. This is black and white as it is any time the government exercises it power. No different than with no-knock raids, enemy combatants, and foreign wars. Haslem is a villain in a black therefore all alleged victims wear white hats. To think otherwise is analagous to blaming rape victims.

  • I really enjoyed this article, it was an objective look at the situation which is looking more and more like government intimidation of a successful business. I buy tooling for a machine shop. It is MY job to make sure i am getting all of my discounts, not the vendors.

    • You really should look up the word “objective”. This is a fiercely subjective/partisan interpretation of events, which is fine, but a far cry from anything that could be considered “objective”

      • so.. tuesday’s post where i opened the door to sex trafficking, environmental exploitation, price gouging, and nine figure tax evasion WAS objective then?

        weird.

        im good on the definition of objective, and pretty sure dimoko is too. thanks.

        ps, youre always welcome here and hope you know i generally like your takes. just a heads up that the stuff zara and i took yesterday are paths we’d like to avoid here.